>> up next on booktv, robert edsel reports on the rescue and protection of historic pieces of art in italy during world war ii. and not the army who occupied italy in 1943 diluted in numerous historic artifacts and artwork that data from the renaissance and the roman empire. this is about an hour 20 minut minutes.

>> well, thank you very much for that warm stirring welcome. i really appreciated. and beth and timothy, and all of my friends in philadelphia, it's a wonderful opportunity to be back in philadelphia, at the philadelphia museum of art, one of our nation's great, great museum treasures to how fortunate for you all to be members of this fine, fine place. "saving italy" is a magnificent story, one i'm really excited to share with you. and it all began for me in 1997. i had moved to florence with my family and i was walking across a bridge one day, the only bridge in florence not destroyed by the nazis as they fled florence in august 1944. and standing on the bridge i wonder how was it in the most

destructive conflict in history, some 65 million lives lost, that some of the great works of arts and cultural treasures survive, and he would enable the saving? that has led me now into this remarkable journey, now some 15 years, 16 years later, 10 years of my life full-time, and trying to make sure everyone in the world knows this story, a great american story. and i want to introduce you to "saving italy." ♪ ♪

♪ ♪ >> our story begins with this failed artist and art, architect, adolf hitler, who had applied to the vienna academy of fine arts and was rejected. art became a weapon of propaganda for the nazis as he rose to power. and the story begins in may 1938 with hitler and the nazi visits, first state visit to italy beginning in rome.

they walked t through the colism with mussolini accompanying the. they look at this wonderful sculpture. and after four or five days they made it to force on the last day. they only had 10 hours that more than two of them are allocated to visit the great museums of florence following this introduction of the furor alongside benito mussolini. they walked through the quarters starting at the palace and crossed over, and they made it to the museum. hitler felt like an artist walking among artists. having a chance to see masterpieces he had only seen in books or had studied in galleries. he was fascinated with all of these things and it really showed them the art of what was possible, concerning his dream of building a museum in his hometown but it was going to be known as his museum. he made these drawings and sketches working on it in the

period following 1938, and ultimately led to this scale model intended to rebuild his entire town, and that the center would be this cultural mecca. in september 1939, with nazi germany's invasion of poland, museums throughout europe closed. works of art were packed up and moved outside the cities out of fear of damage from allied bombing, works were evacuated in a matter of 10 days, some 400,000 objects. the same took place in 1941 following the blockade. in italy, the works were moved on multiple occasions to fill his and the castles in the countryside. works that couldn't be moved such as the iconic david by michelangelo were entombed in brick, creating this scene of silent with the adjacent

michelangelo also entombed. the italian museum officials concerned that a bomb might land on top and destroying the ceiling. they could only hope this would affect the falling roof and save the sculpture. of course, we're not a da vinci's most important work, the last supper, ended on the north wall in santa maria, north wall of this dining hall was protected with sandbags and wooden scaffolding held in place by braces on both sides of the wall out of the same fear. and the fact that fear was realized in august 1943 when a british bomb, part of the efforts to five on the cultural center of milan, landed in the courtyard and obliterated the cloister area, blowing out the east wall of the dining hall here on the right, and leaving the last supper exposed to the elements behind this wooden

scaffolding. it would be sometime before italian officials could build a new roof, and it would be two years before the monuments officers would arrive in milan and begin the effort to supervise the removal of the sandbags and the scaffolding and determine whether another work of art actually would survive, whether the wall would stand. this was the scene shortly after the bomb fell. and you can see the sandbags here on the side of the scaffolding. this diagram actually provides an even more clear respected showing the sandbags on both sides of the north wall. about the same point in time, "the new york times" released a newspaper article letting everyone know that the group had been formed to try and create a new kind of soldier, a soldier charged with saving, not destroying. and their official group name was monuments fine arts and archive section to their responsibility was to try to

help allied administered bombings away from these cultural targets and avoid these close calls another destruction. by the time they have boots on the ground they were charged with attempting to try to affect temporary repairs to miners and other structures. and ultimately as they reached some of these cities that have suffered severe looting by the nazis, they became de facto our detectives, chasing down some of the most important masterpieces worth billions of dollars all the way down to the end of the war. this is an experiment that had not been tried before. nothing on this scale, involving a group of men and women, museum directors, curators, art historians, architects, and artists, some were artists, who volunteered for service. most all these men and women had established careers, and many have families. their average age was about 40. about 70% were americans, 30%

british. they had every reason in the world do not volunteer for military service, but they felt they had a contribution to make, and they did volunteer. and they went into combat, attached to the various armies, attempting to work with them. and the very first monuments officer was a classics professor from harvard called mason payment. hammond arrived in sicily some three weeks after combat operations have begun. and it was typical of the difficulties this experiment had in the early stages. hammond was initially flown, not sent over on a ship but flown over to north africa because president roosevelt understood the war was proceeding at a pace faster than the monuments officers could be assembled and trained. he thought he was actually going to become a monuments officer for north africa but only when he arrived there today say you are getting ready to go to sicily. he made numerous efforts to try to go to the library to study up

on what is going to be seen, but army intelligence prevented him from doing it because they were convinced german spies might have their hands. this was the one step forward, two back, the monuments officers begin with. they came in the months that followed one by one, monuments officers from the united states, from great britain, a sign oftentimes without jeeps, without transportation, without a staff if they didn't have cameras. when cameras did arrive did nothing and and. these middle-aged men have positions of greater responsibility without the resources to do their job before and they were unintimidated by. they were resourceful and clever and very funny with your. many of them having been schooled over there. but by the time december 1943 arrived, the mistakes and difficulties of trying to get this operation coordinated with the military staff, general

marshall, he issued a directive not just the commanders but all troops. and general eisenhower issued this historic directive on december 29, 1943, that said it was the responsibility not just to his commanders but all soldiers to protect cultural treasure so much as war of out. >> if it comes down to the lives of our men or an object, the lives of our men count more. but he also pointed out, to oftentimes this is an excuse of convenience. this was the foundation for the work of the monuments men. they felt finally they had some leaks underneath the effort, and the backing. and the very first test of general eisenhower's order, the first major test, team just 45 days later in the battle that had drug on for a month and a half and would last for another two and half months with american and british forces convinced german forces had

occupied this ancient abbey of the casino and the decision was ultimately made out of a desire to try and mitigate the loss of life and horrific casualties to bomb the abbey and try and force the germans that some commanders were convinced we were lodged inside out of the abbey. we learned after the battle that infected german forces were not inside the abbey. they were surrounding it. many of the monuments officer agreed with decisio the decision hindsight because they felt this abbey was sitting up on the hill mocking the troops and as i mentioned that battled kenya for a month or three months before the breakout occurred and allied forces were on the road towards rome. now, there were enormous successes that as a result of the ordination of the transfer i -- of the monuments officers.

is located some 467 feet away from the train station what most people that visit florence arrived. and allies determined to try and help troops pinned down on the beaches, attempted to knock out the rail yard in the center area of florence. and, in fact, the rail yard was so close to the church, this is the most precarious but successful bombing mission, perhaps the most successful bombing mission during world war ii. you could see the bridges of -- less than a half of a mile away from where the bombing took place. and by april and may 1944, to keep monuments officers were in position, and it is through their experiences that i tell the story of -- deane keller it

was a portrait painter and studied in rome from 1926-1929, attend the american academy of from. he was later then after that a professor of art. he left behind his wife and his three year old son. keller was not only charged with tremendous responsibility of being the monuments officer for u.s. fifth army, but he was also trying to be a dad him a long distance but an understanding that his son couldn't read letters, he put his artistic skill to work and started sending him drones but, in fact, dozens of drawings but this is a drawing of him selling his fifth army patch on his uniform in naples. and later, one of three birthday celebrations he missed of his son trying to take your the of the monuments officer we focus on was an art scholar named fred

hartt. he was 29, quite a bit younger and much younger than most of the monuments officer. he, too, has visited your on a number of occasions visited milan. he loved art. it was his dream to save these works of art and save the things in this country that it meant so much to him as a youth growing up. and as the war then advanced the on the valley, north through rome, north through siena and reached the hills, the tuscan hills outside the city of florence, the monuments officers arrived horrific discovery, one that actually horrified them with the news that this castle right outside florence housed works of art of the museums in florence that whether uncreated, leaning up against the wall. they had been led to believe by

italian officials when they arrived in rome at the works of art from florence had actually been moved back into the city out of the way of oncoming ground combat, that they found out quickly that this was not the case. it set the alarm bells off. a handful of monuments officers, only 20 or so, gathered at attempted to get as many of them to florence, tuscany as they could, out of fear that more had these works of art and might be looted or actually damaged in the combat. fred hartt was there before deane keller. by the time deane keller arrive, it's too late for these works of art in the back into the city, standing next, inside this bill. one of the many hundreds of works of art. there were 38 other villas they were to learn containing similar works of art that had been moved out of the city by the superintendent.

german field marshal albert kesselring was determined to avoid making mistakes he felt to be made in rome by hitler's order to not destroy the bridges of rome, and he was in the process of supervising the demolition charges that were being set on all the bridges in florence, trying to delay the allied advance. by the time the monuments officers and the u.s. fifth army, british eighth army arrived in the florence, all of the bridges with the exception of caravaggio was not destroy but although it was the lesser of the important bridges, the most important being a bridge that its design was influenced by michelangelo. hitler had been told that but he would have nothing of it. he was convinced he knew better than the art historians that with rising in.

the problem was in an effort to avoid destroying the bridge, they made a concentrated effort to destroy the access to the bridge on both and. this is a drawing that fred hartt drew some years after the war, the areas in black are areas that were demolished if they look like moonscape. the gray areas were severely damaged so you see the ponte vecchio in the upper center of the photo that did survive but in an effort to avoid destroying it there was so much extra demolition charges place in the adjacent building, and in particular the 13, 14 to 15th century medieval towers that had for so many centuries defined the city of florence lost out of an effort that keeps this bridge. this was the scene, the ponte vecchio surviving. but as you can see on the south

side, on either side of the bridge all the buildings simply erased. changing the landscape, the fingerprint of florence forever. the monuments officers upon arriving in rome had learned from rome officials the works of art from the museum in naples had been placed at "the abbey," and in december 1943, january 1944, german troops and a much trumpeted and highly visible ceremony delivered the works of art including his painting, and another painting at peter bruegel, to rome in front of where you may have seen mussolini stand on the balcony speaking. and it was an effort on their part to show the world that german forces were not steely works of art, that they removed these things from the abbey knowing that the groundwork was headed there.

that there ever was to safeguard these works. there were cameras there to film us, cinemas, wonderful works exchange. but because of the advancing war, rome officials did not have time at the moment to go through and inventory these works of art from the museums in naples which also included works from the herculean and also from pompeii. but by the time the monuments officers arrived in june after the liberation of rome, and inventory was taken and the monuments officers in conjunction with italian officials realize that 187 cases of works of art were missing. in fact, they weren't complete -- have been delivered effort to open up many of these cases and select which works were going to be taken with different paintings and different cases not matching the inventory, some of them cleverly put back together, some hastily done so.

so with this information the monuments officers had their first knowledge that there was a deliberate effort to steal works of art and that this was the first significant theft after looking to try to find these works of art. so fred hartt being aware of this, first person he attempt to find influence is the superintendent of art. he is a fascinating figure, elderly man by world war ii. he was a young man that played an important role during world war i in the protection of a cultural treasures of tuscany and also of the nation. here's a man who's already been through this drill once before. but he had an interesting experience in 1911-1912 at some of you may know that leonardo da vinci's mona lisa was stolen in 1911 by an italian who was determined to repatriate this work of art to his country. and he brought it back, and in a sting operation which involved,

the painting was recovered. those of you who have been to florence may have passed the hotel which is the hotel where the work was actually found. he then brought it to him it was temporally placed on exhibition before he accompanied it back to the louvre in december 1913. he told hartt this incredible story about german art preservation officers that did it here on scene in late 1943. the germans policy towards our protection was to have our protection officers, albeit few, and countries that would've been occupied. but italy was a public situation because for the first three years of the war it was an ally of nazi germany. and with a change of allegiance by german forces in septembe september 1943, watt and acts of destruction begin, including as we saw shortly thereafter the

looting of the works from the museum in naples. the fate of so many works of art and italy rested and upon the individual commanders in the field and ask the burning of library objects, books, museum objects such as paintings and drawings, and this news was conveyed to hartt. thank you had news. an ss officer was head of the german protection our unit. there were some outstanding german scholars that did try and do a good job protecting these works of art but he was in office of the ss and also having a background in art was someone that wanted the allied officers after the war, after interrogating them, referred to as a man who and what have his heart dedicated to the protection of art but another have dedicated to the ss. and he then proceeded to tell

hartt about the agreement that the italian and florentine officials had with german officials that under no circumstances were these works of art in the florentine museums that have been placed in the nearby villas and councils in the tuscan hills where they could be removed without authorization. and yet they discovered that works had been removed but, in fact, hundreds of works of art including michael angeles sculpture, donatello's work. is wonderful work. the painting by botticelli. and to works by german painter so greatly admired by his nazi party leader to hitler had coveted these works of art during his 1938 and 1940 visits to florence. and they were gone. in fact, fred hartt would later say that with the laws 529 paintings, 162 works of

sculpture, all totaling 735 objects, that florence suffered a robbery on a scale to do with the depredations of napoleon. he wasn't acting alone. with the supervision and approval of a man known as assistant general karl. a figure often times overlooked in our study of the this part of the war. he is a fascinating figure. for seven years he is adjutant to ss leader heinrich himmler. from 1936-1940. is a favorite of hitler -- i'm sure, favorite of himmler but he's also a favorite of hitler because he is the ss liaison to the führer headquarters. he's looked at by hitler as this area and tall figure, very aristocratic in appearance, blonde hair, well-educated, very cultivated.

wolfe can be seen on the right hand side just over the shoulder of himmler on one of their many visits to concentration camps. this one in the soviet union. wolf is a role largely as later referred to as desk murderer, signing documents that help facilitate the train system moving concentration camps, one place to the camps. inset timber in 1943, however, following the removal of mussolini from office and the change of allegiance by italy switching sides, adolf hitler in a rage swears that the german forces are going to go into the vatican and, indeed, it of its cultural objects and treasures, and takes wolf beside and defines them secretly this responsibility, including kidnapping, in fact one general later argued, kill pope pius

xii. both thought this was a pretty bad idea. he understood enough about italy to know that the catholic church and the vatican played an integral role in maintaining the fabric and structure of the country. and whether or not this plan developed is a topic of ongoing research and differing opinions but these words were uttered by the führer at one point in time. and both managed to delay implementation of this order, distractions occurred and he worked very hard to implement what he referred to as the easy hand, never to try and cultivate a relationship with the vatican officials, realizing that there could be favors he could extend and perhaps thinking ahead, favors returned. the works of art in florence where move north over bomb crater roads often times

straight the allied pilots using trucks and fuels which jenna wolfe has made available. it was his judgment that they needed to be saved and that they were taking the north to place be hidden, and they were taken to an area known as -- an area that legally is in italy but is predominately german-speaking, even to this day. and they are these works of art were unloaded and you can see the minimal amount of protection that they were provided, moving some 350 miles north over these rickety roads, sometimes no tarps to these paintings arrived in a light drizzle. you see the straw on the ground, the paintings swinging back and

forth on the truck over the vibration of the road. and it was there that they say, wolf's understanding that they were not going to be returned. he was not going to return them to the italians who were clamoring to have them to move into an area that they felt was safer under their control. neither was by december 1944 willing to obey orders from his former boss, heimlich himmler, one of them moved into austria and germany into the salt mines. wolf professed at that stage he had a shortage of vehicles and gasoline and could not deliver them at that point in time. and while there were shortages of both, wolf i think have the resources to do it have you wanted to. however, he had not one but two families but he'd been married and had a family with a lady who was brunette, and ignoring some of his biology lessons, finally realized he wasn't going to have

any blonde children with this woman and divorced her and got married to his second wife. and had a happy result with the children that were born. he was very concerned by january that this war was going to end and nazi germany was on the verge of defeat. .. >> outside the eye of adolf hitler and trying to work

outside the vision of his former boss, hemler, to discuss with dulles his desire to surrender all german forces in italy, to secretly surrender more than a million troops. this was something that he felt he could negotiate and pull off. he also offered other incentives. the scorched earth policies which hitler had provided to his commanders for the great industrial cities of northern italy. wolfe promised he would make sure his ss forces ignored those orders. there were some 350 pilots from the united states and great britain and other political prisoners being held by ss forces. wolfe promised their safety. and among other things on the list, he also informed dulles about these 800-some-odd masterpieces that were under his control and that he would make sure that these were delivered to allied forces. dulles was under extremely

strict instructions from the president, from president roosevelt, that he could have a meeting with wolfe and listen to what he had to say. but under no circumstances was he to enter into any kind of negotiations, much less make any deals with this leading nazi officer. something that dulles, to his grave, swore that he did. however, it's interesting to note that carl wolfe managed to survive and war and was not prosecuted at nuremberg. in fact, he did appear there as a witness for the prosecution. unaware of all of these negotiations going on behind the scenes, monuments officer fred hartt is determined to find these works of art which he loved and studied so much. and he took it upon himself, this impulsive, risk-taking officer, to contact another oss man that he'd met, on

italian-american and plea for his help to use some of his agents behind enemy lines to try and track down the whereabouts of the works. he recruited a man with a perfect disguise, a priest from parma who was also a partisan and leader of a brigade that worked behind the lines. anelli was recruited to try can and use his network, and, of course, what better disguise than wearing the outfit of a priest. but there were difficulties to get him in the areas that he needed to be. so they decided that he would fly him behind enemy lines and allow him to have his very first airplane ride going up but, of course, the plane couldn't land, so they had to suit him up with a parachute to he could jump out. [laughter] and the story proliferates that after having jumped out, the couple of officers in the back of the plane looked and saw his

prayer book there, and they wrapped it in a rag and tied a rope around it and dropped it out. so anelli became known as the legendary flying priest among his parishioners. [laughter] on may 2nd, wolfe's dream was realized, and a surrender document was signed. this is wolfe on the right side, and the man on the second from the left is the right-hand man to alan dulles who hooked up with wolfe shortly afterwards, about a week that and a half la. the surrender was kept secret for three more days, until may 5th, to allow both sides to work out the terms of this cease fire before it was ultimately announced. the very first surrender of german forces during world war ii. days later news came to deane keller with the two locations of

the works of art that had been taken from florence, the paintings and the sculpture, many of which had been moved uncrated. and he arrived at this jail cell to go through each of these individual cells so packed tightly with works of art he couldn't even move some of the paintings to see what were behind all of them. but they were these masterpieces which hartt had alluded to that were there, and in an adjacent carriage house, a number of the sculpture. keller and hartt and brian ward perkins who can be seen there on the right-hand side also arrived to find some of the german officers or art protection officers including langsdorf who's standing in the center. langsdorf was very put out that it had taken hartt so long to get there, and he wanted to make it clear that he was acting under the orders of general wolfe to tender custody of these

works of art to the united states army. they weren't returned to italy. they weren't to be given over to the british, but to be given to the american forces. in the ensuing two months, deane keller and fred hartt struggled to work on getting these work withs of art crate -- works of art crated and moved to trains and get them back to florence. that wasn't -- that sounds not as difficult as it was because at this point in the war the shortages were severe. finding wood for crates was difficult, finding the laborers to be able to build these things, just finding food for the laborers was quite a challenge. all the bridges north of florence had been blown up either by allied forces trying to prevent the nazis from escaping or nazi forces as they moved north trying to impede the allies' advance. so many of these bridges had to be rebuilt. and it was the first train to be back in operation to get these works of art back to florence. and they arrived in late july,

1945. this is the rail yard. you see pogi with the white panama hat, keller holding up his notebook with the inventories of the works of art that he supervised packing up, and fred hartt bent over signing this inventory schedule, formally transferring responsibility for the works of art back to pogi and the republic of italy. keller had to fill out a waybill for theworks of art before they were departed, and he put down that they were valued at $500 million. that was in 1945 dollars. the works arrived in florence the following day to a joyous celebration and ceremony by local officials including the mayor with the civil affairs section. and they traveled the same path that adolf hitler and benito mussolini had traveled seven

years earlier when hitler's first visit, when he stood there on the balcony sharing his vision for this thousand-year reich. now, deane keller and fred hartt and be the other monuments officers certainly will be remembered for their remarkable work saving those works of art from florence. but i think their great legacy is the preservation of important buildings that are there that we visit today, some of which are still under repair. and there's no better be example than the campo santo. it housed the great leaders of pisa. at one point in time, the towering party over its nearby rival in florence. today most people go to pizza to -- pisa to see the leaning tower, but before the war, they did so to see the campo santo because inside this cemetery was

20,000 square feet of frescoes, 3,000 more square feet of frescoes than the painted surfaces of the sistine chapel. the photograph that you're seeing now shows the campo santo, however, the roof that should be there is gone. during combat an around tilley round landed -- artillery round landed short and hit the roof. the lead melted and bled down the sides of the wall, blistering these frescoes, leaving this tragic situation of millions and millions of pieces, these little fragments of frescoes that had fallen off the wall. you can still see some attached blistered that have been baked by the tuscan sun over the month that it took to get german forces out of pisa before keller could arrive. keller having known and understood about the portion of the campo santo having been a student in italy reacted immediately. he contacted senior military

leaders and he said if ever there was a moment for the monuments officers to prove their worth, this is it. i need engineers. i need fresco restorers from florence. i need food to feed them. i have to have housing made available. we need people, and we need it now. and his commanders responded immediately. these workers came, brought these wheelbarrows and shovels and began picking up these pieces. this is a painting painted in the 19th century of one portion of the campo santo. this is what it used to look like, and this is what it looked like by the time deane keller arrived. you see this symbol of mandela that was painted and very severely blistered. keller's great concern and insight knowing the weather in florence and having -- in pisa and having been in italy so often is what would happen when the fall rains came and wash off

what remained on the walls eliminated any possibility for repairs. so army engineers constructed this innovative design to try and deflect rain water away from the walls and allow time for a permanent roof to be built. deane keller died in 1992 but not before having visited pisa with his son dino in 1965, some 21 years later after having first arrived in pisa. and this boy whom he had sent these drawings to from his arrival in pisa and these enduring drawings celebrating the absences of christmas worked for eight years with italian officials to make it possible for his father's remains to be buried in the one place he was convinced they should be buried, which was the campo santo. so this is the tombstone where deane keller's remains are and can be seen today.

and be for those of you that visit pisa, you can walk across the way to the laboratory where the work continues to this day glueing these pieces of frescoes that deane keller and ore officers saved d -- other officers saved back onto the wood panels some 65 years later. fred hartt's contributions to saving important elements of florence was certainly no less. fred hartt understood acutely the great history of this city and the leading role its medieval towers play. this is the -- [inaudible] if you visit florence today and walk across the ponte vecchio walking north across the arno, you'll see this tower there. and it's there because fred hartt negotiated and worked with army engineers who, not having an appreciation for these buildings, looked at them as damaged and unreparable, and

they were interested in having the remains to use for, use the rubble for roads. there was an urgent need to try and clear these roads to be able to get emergency help in. but fred hartt had an understanding between, understanding of the difference between buildings that were damaged and damaged beyond repair and those that could be repaired, this being one of them. and this is just one example of the work that he did including finding glass and tile to make sure that the fountain that at one point in time had water in it up to the ankles because there were no windows or roof on portions of it. hartt's dedication to italy didn't end with the war. in 1966 during the horrific floods in november, hartt -- like other monuments officers -- traveled around the country, united states, raising money to make available to the italians to try and help this disastrous situation and begin the repowers of works of art -- repairs of

works of art. so this is something that lasted a lifetime both for he, deane keller and many of the monuments officers. and apropos, fred hartt's companion of 30 years similarly labored with the felon teen officials to make sure that fred had a chance to be buried in the church which he loved so much overlooking the city. and this is the tombstone where fred's buried. in the course of my work over the last 17 years or so, last ten years full time, i've had a chance to meet 17 monuments officers; two women, 15 men. i've interviewed all of them and many of their family members. today there are five monuments officers still living. one woman who's parish, four men. -- british, four men. and i've asked each of them one question: is art worth a life? and one of our monuments officers who's living, bernie taper, answered that question

this way: >> i remember having a very boozy discussion with stuart leonard in a berlin apartment one night. which is of more value, a work of art or a human life? and i was saying human being. and he was saying work of art. and we had another drink, and then we had another drink can. and i said, well, would you give your life to save save the cathedral? and he said, sure. and then he said, and actually i had that choice to make because there were bombs placed around the cathedral. as a bomb disposal expert, we came in and i was the one who had to take them and dispose of them. so he won his argument that way. [laughter] >> i was with bernie several

years ago. when i travel around the country, which my father's very pond the of reminding me i do too much of -- i always make a point of stopping in and visiting and seeing the family members, and i often times ask questions i've asked before. and i asked bernie, i said, let me ask you again, is art worth a life? be he looked at me and said, is there something wrong with your memory? [laughter] and i said, no, no, but maybe you remember something that you didn't tell me before. he said i told you all this. i told you about having a drink in a berlin apartment with stuart the leonard, and i told you about stuart leonard telling me the one good thing about being in the demolition squad. i said, wait a minute, i've never heard this. how could there be any such thing? he said, i wondered the same thing myself. and i said, stuart, what in the world could be good about being in the demolition squad or the bomb disposal squad, and stuart said, well, you never have a

superior officer looking over your shoulder. [laughter] but bernie went on to tell me a little bit more. and he said i remember now that stuart said it was all worth it for the reward that, for the reward that he's received. and bernie said, reward, who was there to give you a reward? he said, well, after i got those last bombs out, i was alone inside the cathedral for an hour by myself. so these are the stories we continue to gather to this very living part of this final chapter of world war ii history that's not been written. it's being written today. you all not only have a chance to have this front row seat to watch the history with written, but -- be written, but you have a chance to help us write it. now, deane keller had a different, a slightly different twist on this answer of this question. of course, i came along after he'd passed. i didn't have a chance to ask him. but in our extensive research

going through all of his documents, igd see that, in essence, these are things that he, too, thought about. and keller's view was that he believed that the life of no american boy was worth a single work of art or a monument. however, he believed that the life of a soldier or an american boy was worth a cause. and i think that's the better way to frame this, that we do risk lives for democracy, for these principles that we believe in, for the opportunity to be stewards to these things that have survived not by accident, but because people in centuries before sacrificed and dned that they should survive as the best examples of our civilization and that we should have the chance to have them and pass on the responsibility to us to make sure that they were protected. and fred hartt and deane keller risked their lives on numerous occasions walking through booby trapped buildings trying to protect these works

in fact, two monuments officers in northern europe -- a story i describe in monuments men," in my last book -- were killed in combat. they were not sitting in an office somewhere, they were there on the front line doing their job. they came back after the war, many of them resumed their careers, some went on to even bigger and better things. and i dare say there's not a museum or major cultural institution in this country that doesn't have a connection with a mown units officer -- monuments officer. and i want to let you see a couple of the prominent people and the be institutions that they represented in the years that followed. ♪ ♪

♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ >> we don't have any monuments officers nearby that were able to make it tonight. one, in fact, does live not too far from philadelphia. however, we're very fortunate, it is such an honor for me to introduce to you all deane cerl's other son, bill keller,

and his wife judy who are with us tonight. thank you very much, bill. [applause] i recall reading a quotation by president kennedy that said a nation, a nation reveals itself not only by the men it produces, but the men it honors and the men it remembers. and by that standard, we as a country did a very poor job, because we don't remember, we didn't know this amazing, remarkable legacy of our country during the most destructive conflict in history. and we paid a horrible price for it in the years that followed, not having monuments officers. in particular in the aftermath of the looting of the national museum of iraq in baghdad in the 2003. this is one of the things that i created the monuments men

foundation for the preservation of art to do, was to not only preserve the legacy of these great heroes, but put it to use so we can reestablish the united states leadership in the protection of cultural treasures. one of the things we did was interview a modern day monuments officer, a woman, corrine wagner, who served with distinguish, had distinguished service in the army who went to iraq following this disastrous initial response to help try and fix things. and since became a curator in minneapolis. and i asked her this question about the importance of the monuments officers, and here was what she had to say. >> the looting of the iraq museum in 2003 caused a lot of anger. it wasn't just bad pr for us in iraq, it was bad pr for us throughout the world. we have to be ever vigilant in trying to educate our elected leaders and the top of the military on the importance of protecting cultural property during armed conflict.

during world war ii, it was an emphasis area for the supreme allied commander, general eisenhower. he took great measures to do that not just because it was the right thing to do, but because it was one of his tools in his tool kit to help win that war. >> those of you that are keeping an eye on world events know of the ongoing civil war in syria. these challenges continue to this day. we see destruction of some of these extraordinary roman columns with syrian tanks driving across them, combat fire, tank fire aimed at them. in aleppo recently, just in recent weeks, this wonderful tower was destroyed, this 11th century minaret. i believe this is a great opportunity for us. it's a call to action for all americans to reemphasize to people, spread the word of what we did can during world war

ii -- we did during world war ii with the leadership of president roosevelt and general eisenhower. in this historic action by these men and women, a handful of them. and i say the all people, surely, in a world war with no technology, no more than 40 monuments officers ever in italy, about a hundred in northern europe, if we can do the job we did then, we can certainly do a better job today. and that is why in 2007 i did found the monuments men foundation for the preservation of art. and i'd like to share with you a few minutes about the initial years of our work. ♪ ♪

♪ >> the vision and leadership of western allied leaders, in particular general eisenhower, made the protection of artistic and cultural treasures a priority and the return of stolen property in violate. the monuments men were the people who implemented and affected that policy. their legacy is rich and filled with incredible examples of how to protect cultural treasures from armed conflict. but their legacy has beenal but lost. we as a nation have paid a high price for not having preserved and utilized that legacy. time is running out. for that reason i am announcing today the creation of the monuments men foundation for the preservation of art. its mission is to preserve the legacy of the unprecedented and heroic work of the monuments men during world war ii by raising public awareness of the

importance of protecting and safeguarding civilization's most important artistic and cultural treasures from armed conflict. >> i think recognizing the monuments men as we are doing today is very appropriate and very long overdue. so thank you for having the wisdom, the culture and the awareness of this very important part of preservation for the world for the future. thank you. >> you know, it's not only a story about honor and about a culture and about a democracy and totalitarianism, but it's a great human story, and it's a great american story. and we need to know about it. >> be bernard taper, who's also here, said when he was interviewed, he said there's a cause that's greater than patriotism and a higher cause than victory.

our allegiance was to art, truth and justice. >> the 2007 national humanities medal to monuments men foundation for preservation of art for sustained efforts to recognize the contributions of the scholar soldiers of the second world war. we are forever indebted to the men and women who, in an era of total war, rescued and preserved a precious portion of the world's heritage. [applause] >> one of the things i'm most proud of is that the president gave the monuments men foundation a medal. i'm very, very proud of that. >> in addition to completing our research on these men and women, the foundation will promote and support educational programs about the monuments men and their work in schools and universities. >> i think that it's fair to say that this material is one of the most significant finds related to hitler's premeditated theft of art and other cultural treasures to be found since the

nuremberg trials. it is exciting to know that original documents -- [inaudible] this important aspect are still being located, especially so because of the hundreds of thousands of still-missing cultural rell licks stolen from victims of hitler and the nazis. documents such as these may play a role in helping to solve some of these mysteries, but more importantly, in helping victims to recover their treasures. the national archives is grateful to mr.-- [inaudible] and the monuments men foundation. >> we appeal to people of goodwill from everywhere to join us in el baiting these great heroes in the most appropriate manner possible: preserve and utilize their legacy. >> thank you. thank you for what you did. thank you for coming to be part of this and for telling this story. >> you're welcome. >> thank you so much. thank you, sir. >> let us announce again and

again and again to the people of the world that their culture will be cherished as long as they respect the culture of others. god bless you. god bless america. [applause] >> one of the things i'm quite proud of is i serve as a trustee of the national world war ii museum in new orleans, part of their remarkable campus, about $160 million campus that's built out, another $160 million to go. an incredible telling of the american role in helping, as they say there, help americans understand that freedom is not free and learn about these men and women that sacrificed so

much to make sure we have the opportunities today, including the monuments men. and the world war ii museum has so embraced this story that they will be the first place in the world to build a permanent exhibition for the monuments men sometime in the next few years that we will create a salt mine and give people, both kids and adults, a chance to experience the exhilaration, the fear, the remarkable journey that these monuments officers experienced during world war ii. of course, marla was kind enough to mention my new best friend -- [laughter] george clooney. [laughter] i certainly share all of her views about this matter. [laughter] it's been a wonderful opportunity, working with two gifted artists and businessmen, george and his partner grant. incredibly dedicated to the telling of this story. again, focused on telling the story of the monuments men effort in northern europe. yes, the answer to the question, of course i do hope they make a film about the story of saving

italy. but it's an incredible, incredible experience to see the concentrated effort that they have thrown into this and this once in a lifetime cast, as far as i'm concerned, of kate balloon chet, bill murray, matt damon and -- [inaudible] i know i've left some people out, but i think you get the idea. and it will be out in december, december 18th. and i'm so excited about it for one reason that towers above all the others, and that is this: it was my hope and my dream as this project unfolded and as i've invested more years of my life, and it has defined my life and provided such meaningfulness that other people around the world not just in our country would have a chance to know of this story. and i believe that as a result of this film, there'll be some, i don't know, billion people around the world that will never be confused anymore when they

see the phrase monuments men or wonder when they see destruction of cultural property. and that is going to allow us to get back to that standard that i talked about. because politicians are going to know that there's a billion voters around the world that know this story and aren't going to, are going to want to make sure that we honor the great achievements of these men and women. i want to close to reestablish a perspective on things, because general eisenhower after the war in june 1945 returned to london to receive an award and made his fist remark -- first remarks following the end of the war at the guild hall in london. and you can see people standing on the if saids of these buildings to hear what this victorious general had to say. and true to general eisenhower, he deferred the credit and gave it where it belongs. and i'm always reminded of that at these august moments when we run through these images, and

you see lots of recognition on the part of the work of the monuments men foundation. but it redounds to the work of the monuments men. and general eisenhower said this high sense of distinction i feel receiving this great honor is in's cape my mingled with feelings of profound sadness. humility must be the portion of any man who receives a claim earned in sacrifices of his friends. he may have given everything of his heart and mind to meet the spiritual and physical needs of his come raids. he may have written a chapter that will glow forever in the pages of military history. still, such a man, if he existed, would sadly face the facts that his honors cannot hide in his memories crosses marking the resting places of the dead. they cannot soothe the anguish of the widow or the orphan whose husband or father will not return. the only a attitude with which a commander may with satisfaction

receive the tributes of his friends is in the humble acknowledgment that no matter how unworthy he may be, his position as a symbol of great human forces that are labored arduously and successfully for a righteous cause. my righteous cause and one i plead with you to embrace and share with your friends in every possible way is the great achievements and legacy left to us by these monuments men and women. thank you very much. [applause] >> while robert takes a drink of water and breathes for a little bit, he has agreed to answer a few questions, and so we'll give

him a minute and then, um, he can answer a few questions from the audience. once again, are our mics ready? >> yes, right here. >> okay. we have a mic here and a mic there, and they're going to watch for your hands. so, robert, why don't you point out people -- >> why don't we start right in front. we can't miss him. >> okay. >> thank you for a beautifully-delivered presentation. >> you're welcome. >> i didn't want see a teleprompter, so you have it a little better that some of the politicians. i was wondering what good works that we've done have renowned to the american image in italy and even though things are quite a mess now again, do they still remember the americans that not only saved their country, but also saved their culture? >> can i believe that's a good question and, yes, in fact, i think not only in italy, but also in germany. i was there when, with filming going on x there was a press conference there about the book.

they don't really have press conferences in the united states for a book because most publishers know nobody would come. [laughter] but in berlin there were 25 accredited media journalists from the most important be magazines there coming because they didn't know about monuments men. and italy is pretty much in that same position. and they are fanatically interested in it because, as they've heard me say and i say to you, these are not just heroes of the war with, they're heroes of civilization. those of us that travel to these museums and churches and go visit them, we can't pay them the debt of gratitude that they deserve for the fact that these things are still there. and as i said to people in berlin and i've said it to friends in florence and rome and other cities, no beneficiary greater than germany if you go to the museum island today, not only are these things that are there works of art that monuments officers found in caves, salt mines and castles, but we gave them all back at the

end of the war. and this was the policy of the western allies, it was to make sure that these works of art were not considered spoils of war, rather that they would be returned to the countries from which they were stolen. an incredibly important inflection point in how wars and the consequences of the war have been fought, and it really redefined how we look at these cultural objects since world war ii. yes, ma'am. let us get you a microphone. bear with -- we have very speedy runners with the mics, so you won't have to wait long. [laughter] >> what's next for you? >> um, well, let's see. i was in many kansas city last week to watch it snow -- [laughter] i had to retire my scarf this morning in chicago because it was threatening to do so. tomorrow i will get to see my mother, and she'll be very happy. [laughter] i had to explain to her that the gestation period for a book is greatly in excess of the amount of time she spent carrying me

around. [laughter] we have, i'll be traveling around the country for the next month talking about saving italy, sharing these stories, having a chance to see friends like bill and judy keller and other monuments, the monuments officers that are living and a lot of their kids. i always say kids, they're my age. and these are important opportunities for us and more me in particular because i get information from you all. the monuments men foundation can't find all the missing works of art. no organization can. and despite all the wealth of bill gates and warren buffett and others, there aren't enough detectives in the world to go look for,. however, we can raise public awareness, and we do that through these books and saving utley now and, ultimately, this film where people around the world realize, one, there's still hundreds of thousands of things missing from world war ii. and if they were portable then,

they're probably out there now. and this is a chance for people to participate in the writing. call to action number two for all you young people out there across the country and we're able to reach them today, thankfully, because of having all authors' favorite television station in the world, c-span, with us here today. this is it. this is -- you want to be involved in something bigger than you? get out here x let's make the world, let's put the world back the way it was in this sense. use your technology skills to help us find ways to protect these cultural treasures that are under fire around the world today. there are ways. i'm not smart enough to necessarily know how to do it. but i can certainly speak to the opportunities for us to establish this leadership position that we once held. and it's an opportunity to use these technology skills that you've got to help us find and put us in contact with families who had veterans or displaced persons during world war ii that have things that in the years that are going to come in the

next five to ten years when we lose the rest of our world worlr ii veterans. i lost my dad five years ago. the things that are hanging on walls in basements and attics, they're all going to have a new owner. we're at great risk of these things being thrown away. this is the chance to help with this tip of the iceberg that we're getting ready thousand to see this last hurrah of things and help these things get back to the people that they belong to or their heirs. so it's a great moment, and so for that reason we're spending a lot of time with the work on the foundation and the film coming up. i'll be headed back to berlin when i'm done with the book tour here. and then doing whatever i'm asked to do by the people involved with that as the fall gets here. but really the work focuses now on the foundation. the writing of the books is something that i do. the foundation, a 501(c)(3),

not-for-profit entity is out there to help people. we don't charge anything. we can make a difference. we can do what mother teresa said. you solve hunger one mouth at a time. invest, we've been involved in the -- in fact, we've been involved in the return of some historically-important documents to berlin, to our national archives, and we will soon be announcing another important discovery and a return involving italy, as it turns out. yes, sir. >> i thought you made a very, very important point when you said that a lot of the monuments that exist today exist because of the efforts of past generations which seems to imply that unless the generation today, namely young people, are aware of that, they're not going to be doing that in the future. but if we look at our school curriculum here in the united states, we see that with an excessive emphasis on

standardized tests global history, art, global cultures, all of that is being pushed by the side. i work with a lot of teachers, i'm a university faculty member. so what can we do about this? because our young people are not getting historical consciousness, and i don't think they're going to have the same kind of concern that many of us here do and an older generation of preserving these monuments. >> it's a great question. i'm, i have plenty of faults, one is not -- i have a pretty good understanding of what i know and i have a pretty good understanding of what i don't know. so i wish i had an easy answer that could solve the issue of education. we put together an educational program that's available on the monuments men foundation web site with lesson plans. and i took the approach that bigger, better, longer, better. and little did i know that part of the reaction of teachers was there's so much material here, we're overwhelmed because the amount of time we have to teach

so small, the amount of time we have to study what we need to teach so small. so now we are going back and reevaluating how we go about repackaging this material that includes archival foot an and some of these interviews you've seen. because i can talk about these things historically and infuse them with the passion that i've got, but it's not as good as hearing it from these guys that did it. i'm not the hero they are. and i think that's an important thing, and it's why i believe the film so important. because i travel six, seven months a year, and i love speaking to audiences whether they're on television or, you know, in person. one, 500, audiences have gotten bigger and bigger. but i can't reach everybody. and i don't have the biggest bull horn in the world. that's what we went in search of when i wrote "monuments men," was a story that was told like you were sitting on the shoulder of these monuments officers experiencing what they're experiencing.

and it's why the discovery of their letters home during the war to their loved ones and drawings like bill keller's dad sent home to his brother are so critically important, because that's what people connect with, is the human stories. there's plenty of people that go tell you all the facts and figures, etc., etc., and that's not unimportant. but the thicks that move -- the things that move us as people are the sacrifice and tribulations and sometimes funny things that people get involved in. and it's through these letters home that they described whether they were scare or homesick or exhilarated or drawings that conveyed what it was like for a 42-year-old guy that was a father at 39 to not see his son for three years. so i think by the time we have saving italy out there and people have a chance now to see this whole, comprehensive effort of what these monuments officers did in europe and then a film coming out thattal beit is focused on -- albeit that is

focused on northern europe for young audiences alike, that they're going to go and we're not trying to educate anybody directly. we're not trying to beat anything into them. we want people to have a great time, hear a great story and be amazed. but there's also nothing wrong with understanding heroism, sacrifice, nobility and respect as our monuments officer, our youngest monuments officer says, respect for other people that are going to respect these things ourselves. and i think at that point in time we embark on a different world than the one in which we live right now. i believe every political leader, including the president of the united states, will have to look at this in a different context because they're going to know all of you all know about it. we are going to have military leaders and state department leaders that have a different appreciation for it instead of seeing it as something that they have to do so we don't have problems like we had in baghdad. they can embrace it and see this is something we have an opportunity to do that will

engender goodwill around people throughout the world, that the united states, that sometimes we don't necessarily reflect the greatest cultural understanding. we did at a point in time that if ever we deserved a free pass for forgetting, we didn't forget. and that's the message that i try and convey today, that it all begins and ends with leadership. we have young men and women. our people in the military are so gifted, but they need and want direction. they're not entrepreneurs. they take orders. and the orders have to come from the top. and there are people or that are training to be arts officers today. but i fear that without a bottom-driven effort, in my opinion, it's destined at some point in time to fail. it's got to be top-down. you have to do the work at the bottom, but the guy at the top has got to say so. all of you in business careers or been involved in the military know that the ceo of the united

states is the president, and i believe that's where it's got to begin. and i say that because that's why it worked in world war ii. president roosevelt endorsed this commission, general eisenhower received the orders and issued this incredibly important sea change directive and empowered these men and women to be the instruments of the policy to go out and get it done. we've got people trying to do the job. we have people that work above them understanding why it's important. i think when we have hague conventions and important unesco treaties from 1954 that now the united states is signatory to. but we're missing, in my opinion, the leader of the free world standing up and saying, say what president roosevelt and general eisenhower said, we're going to protect cultural treasures so much as we're allowed. if it comes down to the men of -- if it comes down to the lives of our men and women, the lives are more important. we're going to do all we can do.

this is where young people can come in today. technological skills, most of us won't ever understand. but this is a chance to find a way to use them to do good, especially in these difficult situations like syria where we don't have boots on the ground, we're not going to send in troops for the cultural objects. these works of art are like little kids. they need to be taken care of. and that, in my opinion, is our responsibility as custodians and guardians of them as happened for why they're here today. perhaps one more question, please. >> one last question. >> yes, sir. >> relating to what you just said, we have a lot of powerful cultural institutions in this country and all over the world. do you think we are doing enough to raise the consciousness of this subject matter? >> i don't believe we are. how many people in here have ever heard about the monuments men before this? okay. thank you very much for reading "monuments men." [laughter] but we have, you know, we have

institutions all over the country in places that we aren't able to get people to come, and young people are the key. i mean, this is, this is such an opportunity. it's a growing area. so i venture to say this film is going to draw an awful lot of interest for many, many reasons. not just the people that are in it, but i have a feeling people around the world are going to ask themselves the same two questions that i asked that got me into all this trouble. [laughter] how in the face of the most destructive conflict in history did so many works of art in europe survive, and who were the people that saved them? and i believe people are going to go in there thinking i know a fair bit about world war ii. there can't be any big stories left. and they're going to leave as surprised as i've been over the last 15 years. the it's been a great honor to be with you tonight. thank you very much. [applause] >> for more information visit

monumentsmenfoundation.org. >> request every weekend booktv offers 48 hours of programming focused on nonfiction authors and books. watch it here on c-span2. >> so it actually started for me in 2006. i was a reporter in miami, and there was a case that was announced involving seven men from liberty city which is a poor section of miami. and at first it seemed initially to me a bizarre plot, you know? alberto gonzalez came out to announce the case and said these seven men were here to declare ground war on the united states of america and were going to bomb the sears tower and the miami beach office, the fbi office in north miami beach. well, the question was how do seven men declare ground war on the united states of america, and then i realized there was an informant involved. these men didn't have a connection to al-qaeda, the

connection was an undercover fbi informant who was posing as an al-qaeda operative, and that was their only connection to terrorism at all. so i did my stories when i was in miami, and over time i realized there were more and more cases being announced and they all had this similar pattern. people involved were involved in these fantastical plots to bomb subway stations or office buildings, be i they never had the means to acquire weapons, and those weapons were provided by an undercover fbi agent posing as an affiliate of some sort. so right around 2010 i began to question how can we figure out how many of these cases have existed since 9/11? how many of the hundreds of terrorism prosecutions since 9/11 were involving real terrorists or those involving people that had no capacity of their own? so i had applied for every year

every year three journalists are hosted to produce a project that would take a year around more, and i pitched to taking a look at all the terrorism cases since 9/11 and figure out how many of them involved a terrorist and how many of them involved people that were duped that had no capacity for terrorism but for that fbi informant. and so working with monica, we ultimately produced a story that looked at that entirely. and what we found is more than 500 terrorism prosecutions, one of every two involved an informant. sometimes the informant provided information, but in the case of more than 150 defendants, the informants either played a part in the plot or as in the case of 50 or more than 50, played the role of an agent provocateur, where he provided the means and opportunity for people who on their own never had that capacity. and i think what's important about that and the underlying part of the findings is that we can show these dozens of men who

never had capacity on their own for terrorism, but the ones that did have capacity are very few. najibullah zazi, faisal shahzad, these were dangerous terrorists. but as i mention in the book, you can count on one hand the number of people who actually posed a serious threat. and the others are people like the liberty city seven, this case in portland right now involving a man named mod happened mohamed. they never had the ability to acquire weapons, but the fbi provided them with all the means to go from becoming these men on the fringes to essentially becoming terrorists overnight. ..

>> you could come live with me. i have a car you kudus, you could eat my food and he thinks it is the work of god. it over several months they talk about is -- is long and he encourages him to do get involved with the terrible things the u.s. government is doing to muslims around the world. and he said i want to kill a judge. he did not know the name but the informant says what if

we attack a shopping mall? he said yes. they're getting very excited about it and at that point the fbi has testing but derek did not have any penny. they had to have more than just talking but they needed him to acquire weapons. the informant says i know an arms dealer who can sell you grenades you have some old stereo speakers if you take them he would do a trade. i am pretty sure that an arms dealer would not take a stereo speakers for a grenade. [laughter] but then of course, it is the undercover fbi agent and he hears them over a and then the agent hands over the five grenades that are in dirt and then he is charged with conspiracy and

having a weapon of mass destruction and now serving 25 years in prison. but during the sting operation he said at 1.if it wasn't for you i probably would have ended up stabbing somebody with a steak knife. he was capable of a minor crime at best a through the labyrinth sting operation the government to go to the public to say here is another terrorist caught and another plot flailed. >> you are a journalist but you could talk to actual people to find out, what they were thinking in this process and to make an effort to to get a sense why the fbi would be doing this from your point of view? >> there are a few people who are critical but in

general is general support of this program and what they believe it is al qaeda as it existed in 9/11 doesn't exist as today there is the capacity to go overseas for those who commit a horrific crime and instead they are concerned about the lone wolf those two are disillusioned, a disaffected, bad feelings about the united states, want to do something then they will watch the al qaeda video and that will inspire them to act. , and what the fbi refers to the best there is the franchise model and inspect them with the idea so what the fbi is looking for our people who are on the

spectrum that they term one side is operational than the other side is sympathizer. this somebody on the sympathizer side just about to cross over to operational then catch them before they become a terrorist. these acts are to draw the now to a and arrest them through the only way they have through the criminal justice system and prosecuting them with of conspiracy your weapons of mass destruction. but but the operations identified them firsthand to be empathetic to the fbi point of view is if you are a case agent and he says i want to bog the subway system you probably don't want to be the one who says he will mature and then six months later he really does. so to understand why they would pursue this but what i put in the book is there has

yet to be an example of someone who on their own is incapable of terrorism, a loudmouth who does not have weapons and say here is a bomb. the only people providing the capacity is the fbi. the sting operations are the evolution where in the movies it is glamorized where the guy has the empty briefcase and they believe there is cocaine than they handover the briefcase and a russian and a stinging like that works because data clearly shows of there not buying and selling drugs they can do it somewhere else in the united states. but what is difficult to obtain is the weapons that the people would use in the terror organization and it has yet to be the case someone on their own is a sympathizer crosses over and wants to commit an act of

terrorism but that has not happened. >> what role does the government play in a gay person's life? >> it plays a first of all, a very fundamental role. maybe i should